The West Wing | Transcript & More
Transcript and Other Supplementary Links
Gina Chen 0:00
Like book club meets Letterboxd meets greatest hits meets happy hour, but all about TV.
Mallory Johns 0:06
Every week, three friends make and debate the case if a show is truly essential viewing.
Esra Erol 0:11
Listen for the hot takes and stay for the camaraderie.
Mallory Johns 0:14
I'm Mallory.
Esra Erol 0:16
I'm Esra.
Gina Chen 0:16
I'm Gina.
Mallory Johns 0:17
And this is The Essentials. This week we're talking about NBC's The West Wing, which originally aired in September 1999 to May 2006. It's now streaming on Netflix in the US.
Esra Erol 0:29
As always a general warning about spoilers. We will be discussing everything, especially as this show came out over 20 years ago.
Mallory Johns 0:37
The West Wing, which comes from the mind of Aaron Sorkin, is a serial political drama about the day-to-day operations of the West Wing, the office, the staff, of the President during the fictional administration of President Josiah Bartlet. Ah, Josiah.
Mallory Johns 0:59
So, I... just want to say it: I love this show, so much. And I have watched it about 20 times in completion on a constant loop from 2016 until today, and I love this show, so, so much, because I'm a political junkie. And, I'm a history buff. And if you meld those two things together in a drama, which I also am obsessed with, you get the perfect, like, recipe for Mallory's favorite viewing; nowadays, essential viewing.
Mallory Johns 1:38
And, I started watching this show—I mentioned 2016—I started watching this show, [when] I was working for a tech publication, and everyone there was kind of obsessed with The West Wing, so much so that they created a Slack room just for The West Wing. And one of my friends who—shout-out to Slashfilm['s] podcast, Devindra Hardawar—is obsessed with everything Aaron Sorkin, and kind of yelled at me in a very Devindra-way and said, "Mallory, you need to be watching The West Wing, so much. If you love The Newsroom, you need to watch it. It's amazing!"
Mallory Johns 2:15
And so, I decided to start watching it as the backdrop to the 2016 election. And the day that Trump won, I was just a mess. And I was crying and couldn't get out of bed. And I just... turned on The West Wing and started watching, and started getting sucked into this... this fantasy of... of a presidency that is based in… in fact, and based in competency. And I haven't stopped watching it.
Mallory Johns 2:46
And every day when I would go to work in those hard streets and dealing with everything that's happening in the current political climate, I'd come home, my husband would start cooking dinner, and we'd put on The West Wing, and just fall in love with the dulcet, melodic tones of Aaron Sorkin's dialogue.
Gina Chen 3:05
You have such deep love for this show.
Esra Erol 3:08
Yes.
Mallory Johns 3:09
It's gotten me through a lot of rough times in my life. Two apartments, three jobs.
Gina Chen 3:18
Wow.
Mallory Johns 3:21
Yeah, it's been with me when, like, no one else or in the world has, has, like, had my back. So thank you, Aaron Sorkin, if you're listening.
Gina Chen 3:32
[laughs] Esra, what did you think of the show? I think out of the three of us, you were the most new, relatively, to viewing the episodes.
Esra Erol 3:43
Yeah. My foray into Aaron Sorkin was The Social Network. So I actually, up until then I'd never seen any of his shows. The only thing I knew about him was that 30 Rock was similar to his other show that I cannot name, because again, I'm not very familiar with—
Mallory Johns 4:02
Sports Night or Studio 60 [on the Sunset Strip]?
Esra Erol 4:05
That's [Studio 60] the one! And, I went into the show, without doing any research. I've actually been enjoying a lot of viewing, like movies and TV shows by going into it, knowing nothing about it, so that's what I did with this one.
Esra Erol 4:22
I watched a couple episodes in season one, and it's not what I was expecting. Like, having seen The Social Network, I... it... That movie was very, like, serious. And then it was just, very like... I'm freezing on the word here, but also serious, I guess.
Mallory Johns 4:45
It is kind of rigid.
Esra Erol 4:47
That's a better way of describing it. It's just really rigid and, just like, in your face, and this just felt a lot more, serene, like...
Mallory Johns 4:58
Like a dance!
Esra Erol 4:59
Yeah! Like... Martin Sheen is perfect.
Mallory Johns 5:04
Thank you.
Esra Erol 5:05
He's just... as the characters repeatedly call him a nerd—I don't know if you're allowed to call the president a nerd—but they're really great. I appreciate his love of national parks. He even created his own national park!
Mallory Johns 5:19
Yes, he did... well, a national monument.
Esra Erol 5:21
Is it a national monument? Okay?
Mallory Johns 5:22
Yes.
Esra Erol 5:23
It kind of reminded me of Leslie Knope's Big Thing in the [Parks & Recreation] season—no, series—finale. So yeah, I really enjoyed it because it came across a lot less serious than what I was expecting. But it did make me sad because here is an administration that gets shit done. Watching it in 2020 is just... it makes me want to cry.
Mallory Johns 5:49
It's like very interesting because there's like—I'll give another plug to podcasts I love. The West Wing Weekly by Hrishikesh Hirway, who does Song Exploder, and Josh Malina, who was in The West Wing Seasons Four to Seven, and also on Scandal, like, another show I'm obsessed with.
Mallory Johns 6:07
But this show actually was based about the Clinton administration. And two of the writers in the writers' room, served in the West Wing during the Clinton administration. Eli Attie's, like, one of like my favorite writers, and he's a writer on the show. He became like a producer on the show director. And he was Chief of Staff, I believe, to Al Gore, the vice president. So a lot of the storylines in Season One were literally like, planted from the Clinton White House.
Mallory Johns 6:40
And a lot of people at the Clinton, like, White House, watched The West Wing, so much so that everyone in the ensemble were allowed to go and shadow their counterparts, and were given access to go into the West Wing, and sit in meetings, and watch and learn, and... all they had to say was, "Oh, I'm on The West Wing." And they would be given like standing ovations and—unprecedented access really, to... to places that you and I can't even go to in the West Wing.
Mallory Johns 7:13
So that's how like popular this show was among like the political elite. But I love the fact that it's also kind of based on fact, and I think that this show, and Parks and Rec, give like more realistic visions of what civic life looks like, than what you would see in, like, a Scandal, which was also kind of like influenced by [The] West Wing.
Esra Erol 7:37
I should make it very clear that unlike you, I am neither a political junkie or a history buff. The only history class that really stuck with me was a period history. So I'm very like, I'm terrible with US history. So I feel like I'm googling things during the show, which was fun. But...
Mallory Johns 7:58
Yeah!
Esra Erol 7:59
Whenever I read nonfiction books now, I do that a lot. Like, I'm reading Wolf Hall and I'm googling things about like, that court, and those Royals, and it was kind of a situation here, but I also do that with, like, The Crown. So it wasn't, I wasn't horribly confused; like everything was easy to find.
Esra Erol 8:18
But, it's just, it's... I think one of the other reasons why I really liked it was [that] it's just... it wasn't as serious as I was expecting. Like, these are just normal people that are doing their jobs. They work in [an] office, but they goof off. Like Rob Lowe trying to write the birthday speech thing...
Mallory Johns 8:41
Oh, my...!
Esra Erol 8:41
Like, this is so delightful. He just really wants to nail it. Even though he doesn't have to, but it's just wonderful to watch.
Mallory Johns 8:49
And some great like comedic like acting from Rob Lowe. When he's like, pounding his hand on like the desk, like "I got this. I can do this!"
Esra Erol 9:00
He's like a less anal Chris Traeger.
Mallory Johns 9:03
But it's funny, because people say that, like, Chris Traeger is a super anal Sam Seaborn.
Esra Erol 9:10
I could see that. Yeah, I feel the opposite. He seemed more like... oh wait, maybe I got it the other way around. Yes, you're right. He was a less anal version of...
Mallory Johns 9:21
Sam Seaborn.
Esra Erol 9:22
Yeah, yeah.
Mallory Johns 9:26
Gina, what did you think?
Gina Chen 9:28
I think I'm gonna be that, um... counter-voice again.
Mallory Johns 9:34
Bring it on!
Gina Chen 9:35
In which, I, like recognize, like, the legacy of The West Wing; I recognize, sort of, its impact and, and whatnot. I think it's it's really interesting that like, both of you sort of bring up in what you liked about the show was sort of like the look into the sort of the ordinary lives of people who work in the government. And I think... what I saw in how the West Wing depicts that life and those priorities and their efforts just made me really angry.
Gina Chen 10:15
I think that is partially due to this current time in which I am very seriously, like, actually, like, watching The West Wing for the first time. Before, I'd only seen stray episodes here and there, or, or seen very specific clips discussed in class for, for, a sort of, academic dissection, and in kind of looking at the content of the show in the... the conflicts that are, that—that are structured as things to be, like, overcome. I was really struck by how much of the show seemed to be about stories.
Gina Chen 11:06
Which, in that, like, the potential for a scandal would be a storyline, or the perception... that... of the President was always, sort of like, a constant conflict that was running through different seasons of, you know, whether or not the public was perceiving Bartlet to be doing a good job. Whether or not he seemed competent, or, or capable, or—to be like re-electable. And so I feel like a lot of that is also coinciding with the current media games that we see in our current administration, and how they're trying to frame the President as competent.
Gina Chen 11:56
And I think... and so, sort of like, getting to witness that on-screen so closely, the sort of machinations that go behind the scenes, I think, like, there's a part of me that just wishes that, like, it was may-maybe like a little bit more like, Parks and Rec of like, okay, like, "let's just see, some of like, the really boring, civil stuff." But then, obviously, like, they're two different shows—completely different shows with different ends. And, it's just, you know, sometimes certain shows are... just aren't my cup of tea.
Gina Chen 12:36
I think to this show, particularly, the beginning threw into very stark relief, sort of, how I think, like, much more jaded we are now than we were 20, 21 years ago. And so, Sam... Sam's, like, initial storyline right off the bat, of, like, accidentally sleeping with Lisa Edelstein's, like, call girl, but not realizing she was a call girl. And you know, maybe... maybe the story might leak out. Like, we have the president, like, on the record somewhat admitting to—by way of hush money—admitting to having an affair with a porn star. And so, like, there's, like, a huge gulf that you could drive like many buses through, between what they considered a scandal then, and what is barely a scandal nowadays. And so, I think, like, wow, like, our society's really gone off the deep end in a lot of ways.
Mallory Johns 13:43
It's like very interesting, the longer you watch it, a lot of the things that they're discussing are things that we're still grappling with now. Like, they haven't really figured out how to deal with... like, one of the biggest things, that, like, The West Wing as like a show how to deal with was whitewashing.
Mallory Johns 14:03
So, the first two episodes, like, the NAACP led off, like, a firestorm because there was no one of color. Rightfully so, like that they [the NAACP] did this; in the—in the cast, there was like no one, it's just like, all white people. And that's why, like, Dulé Hill's character was created in Episode Three. And like, without Charlie, I feel like the show would, would not be as good as it is. He just adds so much to the storylines and to the ensemble. Because then you'd get the lovely addition... [of Elizabeth Moss!]
Esra Erol 14:41
I have to rewatch it now after everything Gina just said because it's really interesting points. And I'm just the dummy here who's like, "It was delightful!"
Gina Chen 14:53
No, Esra!
Mallory Johns 14:53
It was really interesting, because, like, you said that. There's like this whole segment that The West Wing Weekly does; they call it, like, Trump III, where they, like, talk about how a certain episode that they're discussing correlates to something that's happening in the media right now. Like, there was like a whole debate about Supreme Court justices at one point. And they were discussing that episode during, like, the Brett Kavanaugh, like, issue. And it's just really crazy how we still haven't figured out a lot of the same things that The West Wing was talking about 20 years ago.
Gina Chen 15:32
I think, part of—like, I think that, like, sort of adds to the timelessness of this show in that the more that things change, the more that, like, a lot of things just seem to stay the same. So, yeah.
Esra Erol 15:47
It's also... I feel like the show can be dangerous in a way because—and Vox[.com] had a whole episode on their podcast [Primetime] dedicated to this where like, it paints a false picture of what an administration could be. And then people expect it to be like this. And they go in to elections thinking, like, "I want it to be exactly like The West Wing," and I get it, because you can tell in the show that they do their jobs well, based on what I've seen so far. Everything gets solved at the end of the day, you know, like there's—
Mallory Johns 16:27
Yeah! And it's also interesting to me that, like, you say that because the Bush White House and the Obama White House were also huge fans of The West Wing, and a lot of the writers onThe West Wing also ended up working in those administrations, trying to bring, like, Big Block Of Cheese Day for example.
Obama saw that in Episode Five, "The Crackpots and These Women," and decided to do Big Block Of Cheese Day in his White House, every, like, once a year. There'd be other groups who don't normally get visibility in the White House would be allowed in to argue their case for why their bills need to be passed. So, in the same way, like, people back then during the Obama Administration, as crazy to think about back then, but they were influenced so much by what they wanted politics to be that they started to make it happen.
Gina Chen 17:24
Well, in doing some of the research for this show, and to sort of get deeper into some of the nitty-gritty of its impact, the one thing that I was really struck by was, that, like, I feel like I've always known what the acronym "POTUS" stood for. And yet, like, to see the scene in the first episode where Sam Seaborn explains what that means, I was taken aback and I was like, "Wait, like—Is—Is this the moment where everybody learned what POTUS meant? Like, in the pop— in the culture-at-large?" And some quick googling verified that yes, yeah, that was the moment and, I was like, wow.
Mallory Johns 18:07
Like it's wild to think about.
Esra Erol 18:09
It's wild because she... I couldn't stop laughing, just 'cause she was like, "Your friend POTUS has a funny name" and I was like, "That's President of the United States!" How do you not know that?!
Gina Chen 18:22
It's like all caps!
Mallory Johns 18:23
This is pre-Twitter, pre-Twitter! Pre-like, presidential handles out, POTUS.
Esra Erol 18:29
Nobody knew before the show?!
Mallory Johns 18:31
Oh, what'd you say?
Esra Erol 18:32
It's crazy. Nobody knew what that meant? No way.
Mallory Johns 18:35
Like, I was thinking about when... 'cause in 1999 I was in like the sixth grade and taking like civics class, history classes and we... no one ever. We never talked about the President as POTUS. It was just, like—
Esra Erol 18:49
President Clinton.
Mallory Johns 18:50
Yeah.
Esra Erol 18:51
It's so weird. Again, this is—this is all very new to me because I just... now we live in an age where, like, we know these things. So it's really shocking to imagine that people assumed POTUS was the name of a person that wasn't the president.
Mallory Johns 19:07
But like, can we also talk about how progressive that first episode was in showing Lisa Edelstein smoking a joint? This is years before California passed, like, their proposition for medical marijuana... like, years! And Sorkin is just here, trying to make weed normal and I was here for it. The first time I watched it, I was, like, stopped dead in my tracks.
Gina Chen 19:34
I think
Mallory Johns 19:35
Are they smoking marijuana?! What?!
Esra Erol 19:37
I felt that way about Martin Sheen's entrance, which was phenomenal I think it's... well, [one of the] greatest TV show entrances. Like, the way that they're talking about, like, abortion and pornography, and condoms and school, I was, like, this feels very odd for a show from like such a long time ago. God, I'm old. I just like to be so open about it. And it's funny because we know people are very open about it now but to imagine back then, just on TV, just to be like, "Take your pick: pornography or condoms?"
Mallory Johns 20:16
But it's still, like, oddly eerie, that, the right, like, the conservative right still thinks the same things. Like, they don't want condoms in the school, even today in 2020. Like, it's just... that's the whole thing that freaks me out about this show. As much as I love it, it's that we haven't yet like, gotten over these social and political norms. 20 years later...
Esra Erol 20:42
Will we ever?
Mallory Johns 20:44
Oh, well, something to think about.
Gina Chen 20:48
I think we will be forced to; our society at large will be forced to.
Gina Chen 20:52
I think, um, as a, like, as a media text, The West Wing is a really fascinating look into, like, what people perceived and like, how people thought like in ‘99 and 2000, like, all the way up until, like—2006 was when it ended?
Mallory Johns 21:11
Yeah.
Gina Chen 21:12
And so to, sort of, see the progression of ideas and to watch as, like, what is normal each season and their depiction of society is is really fascinating and I feel like that's also something that very rarely as like TV viewers, do we really consider too much. And so I think, so much of our TV viewing nowadays is like "oh, like, what...what is the new TV show that that, you know, everybody is obsessed with? And what is next, or...?"
Gina Chen 21:48
And so very rarely do we go back to catch up on certain shows, and The West Wing is obviously, like, one of those, like, hallmark shows that people have on their list of like, "Oh, I'm gonna watch this." But it's also one of those, like, few shows that very much grapples with time that it's in, rather than necessarily, character questions. I think, so... so like, The Sopranos came out about the same time, I think, either the year... before or the same year.
Mallory Johns 22:23
Same year, actually.
Gina Chen 22:24
Same year and... not... like, that's not a show that dissects, like, society during 1999, or society during 2000. Or... whereas like The West Wing, like... there's like, a pre-9/11 West Wing. And then there's a post-9/11 West Wing. And I think, like, that's really fascinating. And also something that, like, we just don't really talk about in terms of watching TV shows too often.
Mallory Johns 22:54
No, yeah, that's like a very good point. I think we, we haven't discussed this yet, but with The West Wing, it had to grapple with 9/11. Sorkin was on [a] 22 to 23 episode commitment per season, which we can also talk about, because that is insane, but that was the norm back then. To do 45-minute-TV shows, baking in 20 minutes for commercials, 22 times in a row, for eight, nine, ten seasons—
Gina Chen 23:22
Exhausting.
Mallory Johns 23:24
Yeah, very exhausting. And so 9/11 happened, like, right at the beginning of the Fall TV schedule in 2001. And The West Wing was in Season Three at the time and they had to push back, like many of the other shows did at that time, their start dates, to October. And NBC executives basically wanted Sorkin to address 9/11 in some way, like many shows during that time, baked 9/11, or like tributes to New York, into their plot lines.
And so Sorkin essentially decided to create a bottle episode that was within the world of The West Wing, but sort of outside of it, by having someone trying to break into the West Wing with a plot up to the White House and dealing with all their characters' reactions to that. And, mildly, or not mildly, really touching on xenophobia in a way that other TV shows weren't doing at the time.
And I personally don't like that episode too much. But I admire it for what it was trying to do. And especially during that time, like, it's quite a revolutionary episode, even if I don't like it, and always skip over it because I just want to get back to the story.
Esra Erol 24:42
That was the first episode that I watched, but this was years and years ago in high school. We had teachers that were obviously very patriotic, and they leaned a certain way and they didn't hide that. So on that particular date, we watched that episode of The West Wing and I remember feeling really uncomfortable.
Because my family is Muslim, and because of all of that, we really didn't talk about it. So I think it'll be interesting to watch that episode now that I've grown up and I've learned more about, like, all of this, and to watch it with like, adult eyes.
Mallory Johns 25:24
Also, Season Three itself is an interesting season. It's not my favorite season of the Sorkin seasons. Because... for the very reason that NBC wanted Sorkin to up the ante and to bring more terrorism into the plotline. There's just more and more episodes that start in the Situation Room and the plotline is just, "Oh my gosh, there a terrorist thing's happening, and Russia might have like the bomb, or maybe there's water reactors here! We don't know!"
Mallory Johns 25:54
Like, there's an entire episode about pictures that—and a water reactor that like may or may not be like nuclear reactors and they spend the entire episode on phones with, like, the Russian president trying to figure this out, while personal things are happening in the lives of the staffers, and it just becomes a slog. And then at one point Mark Harmon is added to the cast because they want a bit more star power. He like leaves the role of like a Secret Service agent who was a lover...
Gina Chen 26:29
Leroy Jethro Gibbs!! [But also more on Mark Harmon…]
Mallory Johns 26:30
...a love interest for CJ, and it's just... And at this point, at this point, like, Sorkin was, like, deep into the, like, five lines an hour, you know, of cocaine. Like, to keep up.
Mallory Johns 26:45
But he admits to it. That's why the dialogue was going faster and faster, sometimes, because he was so coked out in his mind because executives were on his ass to finish these episodes. And he would turn in the scripts to the writers' room, like, within like two days of when they needed to shoot to keep their production schedules, because he was also a control freak. And he had a writers' room, but he didn't really want anyone to do the writing. So Season Three is very messy and I actually prefer Season Four, which is like the last Sorkin era season, more than Season Three.
Esra Erol 27:19
Yeah, based on what you just told me, I think I might skip Season Three in its entirety because I can't stand those plotlines. Like, yes, we get it. Terrorism.
Mallory Johns 27:29
Yeah, I guess we can talk about essential episodes, but in Season Three, like, there's one amazing episode that I love so much. Season Three, Episode 8, "Bartlet for America," is about... it's, it's a basically a Leo character study episode. And The West Wing did this great thing for the first four seasons where the Christmas episode every year—because that was a thing, Thanksgiving and Christmas episodes—so the Christmas episode every year of the of those four seasons, was a character study on one specific character from the ensemble. And anyone who was the subject of that character study received the Emmy for Best Actor. So, like... I should have it right up in front of me; I should know their names by heart at this point!
Mallory Johns 28:22
So John Spencer received the Emmy for Season Three Episode Eight, “Bartlet for America;” Richard Schiff received the Emmy for Season One Episode Eight; Bradley Whitford received the Emmy Season Two for the Christmas episode. So I would say that the Christmas episodes are definitely required viewing for the first four seasons, but you don't need to watch all of them after that.
Mallory Johns 28:47
I know that you want to talk about the music, Esra.
Esra Erol 28:49
It... is so unique. It's very distinct. I feel like, to The West Wing, right? I've never heard a score like that before.
Mallory Johns 28:59
Esra Erol 29:01
That is not a real person, that is not a real person! That name is too glorious.
Mallory Johns 29:08
It just, like, it perfectly fits the music that he writes: flowery and triumphant.
Esra Erol 29:15
There... I will say, there are times when the score sounds like your typical 90s show, like early 2000s show, like sometimes I would listen. And it would bring back flushes of shows like Felicity, which had that, like, smaller sound. And then you bring in the flutes and I was like, oh, patriotism, here we go. Here we go.
Mallory Johns 29:38
I also love the, like, intro music so much. It's really funny, though, because the first few episodes was like clearly a computer score, a MIDI recording, because they didn't have any money. And then like Episode Five, when NBC realized that the show was going to be a hit, they gave him the budget to do a full score, orchestral recording. And then we got the beautiful music for the rest of the season.
Esra Erol 30:04
I... I'm gonna admit I've skipped through the intro on every episode that I've watched—
Mallory Johns 30:10
My heart!!
Esra Erol 30:11
It looks like a film student making a Fourth of July tribute.
Gina Chen 30:17
Yeah, there's just too much, like, waving flag imagery and just too many fades. Like, like... that is too America for me.
Esra Erol 30:27
I'm not... yeah, I'm not... not that America makes me uncomfortable—
Gina Chen 30:31
America makes me uncomfortable! [laughs]
Esra Erol 30:35
Full patriotic imagery... it's just too much for me.
Mallory Johns 30:38
Well, just listen to the intro song on its own. It will get stuck in your head. Biggest earworm ever.
Esra Erol 30:46
What I'll do is, the next episode that I watch, I'll just close my eyes.
Mallory Johns 30:50
And listen.
Gina Chen 30:51
Yeah, let it wash over you.
Esra Erol 30:54
Yeah, I don't want to see the... I don't want to see a flag over Rob Lowe's face. It's not...
Mallory Johns 30:59
[laughs] It gets worse as the later seasons go on.
Esra Erol 31:03
The intro?
Mallory Johns 31:05
Yeah, because the cast was very bloated, with... they just—add—they just kept adding people to the cast. So by the end, like, Kristin Chenowith was, was on the show and it just gets a little crazy, and they kept having to, like, add in different frames, and to... to the intro because, they couldn't change the length of the music. So they would add more frames to cover the new people that were coming onto the cast. And then, also towards the end of the show, people started leaving to go do other shows. Dulé Hill left to go do Psych, and they had apparent holes in, like, the intro and so they had to add more filler to, like, make up for the episodes Dulé wasn't in.
Esra Erol 31:13
So does the intro get longer or do they just put in more American flags?
Mallory Johns 31:55
They put in more American flags; balloons fall...
Gina Chen 31:59
[laughs]
Esra Erol 32:01
I'd rather it be longer with more people than more flags and I...
Mallory Johns 32:06
Yeah!
Esra Erol 32:07
You can tell what kind of imagery I'm not into.
Mallory Johns 32:10
It's a bit much.
Esra Erol 32:12
I mean, it's appropriate Memorial Day is around the corner. So, you know.
Mallory Johns 32:16
Can we talk about one... another reason why I love the show so much?
Mallory Johns 32:19
This show could have been, like, one thing. It could have just been, let's talk about the goings-on of the West Wing. And it could have been a political, like procedural drama: every day is, like, a different bill that they're writing. But then, I love so much, in Episode 11 and 12 the first season, "Lord John Marbury" and "He Shall, from Time to Time...," that Sorkin does the Sorkin twist. And... there's a huge spoiler, if you haven't seen the show,
Mallory Johns 32:50
Oh, wait! Josiah Bartlet is hiding a secret condition and he has multiple sclerosis and he's been hiding it from everyone! Like, I personally love that Sorkin did that twist because it made the show more interesting to me. And there's, to me, it's kind of like pre-disclosure of the illness and then once Episode 11 happens and Season One, post-disclosure, the show just goes up 10 notches in my book, because it comes instantly more interesting.
Mallory Johns 33:21
People are covering things up; not everyone on the staff knows what's going on. Obviously, the public doesn't know what's going on. And then that just, like, lends itself beautifully into, like, the Season One Finale with the shooting. Like, the back half of Season One is essential, essential viewing; and all of Season Two, especially "Seventeen People," when Toby figures out that the President has been lying and doesn't want to seek a second term because he has multiple sclerosis and he hasn't been telling anyone. It's, like, the most beautiful television ever.
Mallory Johns 33:56
The writing is amazing. Sorkin does it as, like a three-part-teleplay. So, Toby is literally like, interrogating and questioning the President with Leo. And the other room, they're... they're trying to figure out jokes for the White House Correspondents Dinner. And then, Josh and Donna are being Josh and Donna. And it's beautiful.
Esra Erol 34:19
From a technical standpoint, you brought up the writing—and shameful play, I'm a screenwriter.
Mallory Johns 34:27
Are you?
Esra Erol 34:28
That's what I studied in school! Aaron Sorkin was considered a god, although, I think there are better writers. But I will admit the writing in the show is fantastic. The dialogue is just... it's really quick. And it's funny when it needs to be. And I tried to... I had a stopwatch to record how much of the show is walking and talking, but it got [to] where it happened too much that I just kind of was like, forget it.
Gina Chen 35:03
The whole show.
Mallory Johns 35:04
And like, Sorkin created the walk-and-talk from this show, and that's something that you're probably gonna say, you learn it in film school, right? Like if you're in camera production.
Esra Erol 35:16
No, I learned it from 30 Rock when he made his cameo, and he was like, "Walk with me!" And he drew a little, round about the room and it's great.
Mallory Johns 35:27
And they make lots of jokes about it, in the later seasons.
Esra Erol 35:32
When she says “Studio 60?” He goes, "Shut up!"
Gina Chen 35:38
30 Rock won that round.
Esra Erol 35:40
30 Rock is better.
Mallory Johns 35:41
I've never seen Studio 60. I probably will watch it. and sorry Devindra, if you're listening... like, West Wing [is the best], always. But, people do tell me that I should watch Studio 60.
Mallory Johns 35:53
So what about you, Gina? What makes you think this show is essential viewing?
Gina Chen 35:58
Yeah, I think so. It's a very begrudging I think so, because I personally don't enjoy it quite as much as you guys do but, I think, like from... from-from it's like a cultural impact to...it it's like or—not, not, just pop cultural impact, but its impact on culture and, and on, like, people who went into government, to sort of more interest from the general public in what exactly goes on in the West Wing and in federal government, like, I... like there's no question at all about its, its importance as, as... It's important.
Gina Chen 36:47
I think, too, just, all the talent that, like, came through the cast is... was also really incredible. And, just to sort of like, see, like, even in the first episode, all of these actors that, like, I think, are... are just, sort of, like, entertainment staples in my head, like, just to sort of see how they were 20 years ago, was really fun and fascinating. To be like, "Oh, yes!" Like I, I know Allison Janney like as CJ, but like, now she is Oscar-winner, Emmy-winner Allison Janney. And then back then she, she was just, Allison Janney.
Gina Chen 37:27
And it was also fun to just, sort of, like, see a lot of other actors, like, before they were able to, sort of, like, find their, sort of, like, iconic roles and stuff. And so Lisa Edelstein—but the call girl is also Lisa Edelstein—like Dr. Cuddy, like badass hospital admin [from House]. So yeah, it's essential viewing. If-If you want to better understand, like, American society or TV, or, you know, the cult of Aaron Sorkin.
Mallory Johns 38:05
That's a good way to put it. I've already given my pitch. It's, it's amazing. It's this whole episode, this whole podcast, but what about you, Esra? Do you think this show is essential viewing?
Esra Erol 38:20
I think it's essential... like Gina said, given its impact on pop culture. I don't think I would watch it religiously. Personally, I'd probably watch like a few episodes here and there. But yeah, I think it's essential because it's The West Wing. I knew about The West Wing before I even decided to watch it. I've heard of it before. It's... people have talked about in my social studies classes, in high school, it comes up in film school.
Mallory Johns 38:46
Yeah, I'm just a completionist. That's just how I watch shows. So I would say, you should watch the entire show from start to finish. But, if you need to choose some episodes, the latter half of Season One and all of Season Two are essential viewing in my book.
Mallory Johns 39:04
And that wraps up another episode of The Essentials. Thanks for listening, and we'll catch you next time!